Simon Sinek: Long-term thinking during a global crisis

The pressure around the world has been turned up. In the short term (finite game) you can’t deny the pain that many are going through. But looking at it through a longer-term perspective (infinite game) it is a hurdle that could offer opportunities for reinvention. Simon Sinek shows us how.

“It is just reality that many businesses will fail, they will go bankrupt… The ones who will survive are the ones that don’t try and double down on their old business models, but attempt to reinvent their business models.”

It was great to chat with the inspiring Simon Sinek on how individuals, businesses and leaders can get through the health and financial implications of COVID-19.

Check out our episode and blog post about Simon Sinek’s book, The Infinite Game.

See more from Simon Sinek on his website: https://simonsinek.com/

Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/7aOhNmwcm0iWlwFfSRoeWr

Listen on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/simon-sinek-long-term-thinking-during-a-global-crisis/id1125635053?i=1000470068219

 

See full interview transcript below:

Simon Sinek (02:41): 

So a philosopher by the name of James Carse in the 1980s articulated these two types of games, finite games and infinite games. Finite game is known players, fixed rules, and agreed upon objective. There’s always a beginning, middle, and end. And if there’s a winner, there’s, there has to be a loser. And if infinite game is known and unknown players, the rules are changeable. And the objective is to stay in the game as long as possible to pitch or to perpetuate the game. There’s no such thing as winning an infinite game. And life is an infinite game. We’re not gonna win this. We’ll get through it. But viruses and diseases and bacteria, they don’t go away. And the virus isn’t competing against us. The virus doesn’t care about us, the virus, like any living organisms, just trying to survive and, and live as long as it’s can. 

Simon Sinek (03:33): 

So there’s no winning this. And so we have to adopt an infant mindset. An easy way to think to think about it is our average lifespan is in the seventies or eighties, right? For most people. And so most people will go through something like this once in their life. You know, our, our, our grandparents lived through the war. Mmm. And we’re living through this, but imagine if we lived for a thousand years, if our lives lasted a thousand years of this, this would be like the seventh one we’ve had of this, you know, and we would think about life a lot differently and we would be prepared differently because we would, we know that this is coming. And the problem is we don’t know when, and this is, this is the big thing about the infinite game versus the finite game. Most people and organizations, I prefer to play in the finite game, quite frankly, because it’s easier. 

Simon Sinek (04:28): 

It’s shorter term, it’s easier to count. It’s predictable. And we falsely believe we can apply the rules of the finite game in an infinite context, which we cannot. You can’t win global politics. You can’t win life. You don’t, you know, not declared the winner of careers. But we, we act as if we can’t. We say we’re number one, we’re the best. You know, it’s just, it’s impossible. So I think this is a big [inaudible] a big reminder to us just how much we do not play with an infinite mindset in the game of life and how ill prepared we are. And especially in the West where we have so much hubris, where we think we’re so special and we’re so advanced and the West is the least prepared of the world, reacting the most poorly. Look at and, and I think it’s a big lesson for us in the West that we’re not better than the rest of the world. 

Simon Sinek (05:30): 

We’re just one of the of the, of, of we’re just one of the group of countries in the world. And, and at the end of the day, we have no control over things like this. And the only way to get through it is with an infinite mindset and to work together. It is the only way, like we have to get through this together. And all the things that many of us are suffering. If you live alone and you’re hunkered down right now, it’s going to get lonely and human contact. Really, really important to social animals. When, you know, if we consider solitary confinement, affordable form of torture because removing human beings away from social animals can lead us to madness. And so I think this underscores the importance of human relationships, real human relationships being in the company of our friends, holding hands, hugging, you know, looking each other in the eye, hearing each other’s voices and no text message or social media or number of likes can ever replace that. 

Simon Sinek (06:29): 

And if this is not the biggest reminder of the value of human relationships, then then I don’t know what is, yeah, it’s an I think and I believe we will come out of this better because, good, good. I will come out of this better because of it. Any of the things that we’re figuring out to get through this, we’ll survive like dinner parties, we’re having online dinner parties. I think there’s going to be more real dinner parties. We’re having more phone call conversations as opposed to texting conversations. I think that will continue. At least I really hope it does. That’s so good. I’m, I’m keen to get to some of the some of the positive stuff and some of the, the solutions at the other side, but maybe let’s start with the negative or the, the, a bit of bleakness I guess. What’s the worst case scenario in your mind if people do become very reactive and do get sucked into the finite game in this moment rather than maintaining some of the infinite mindset and they get sucked into maybe overreactions or what, what’s the worst case scenario here? Well, the, the, the medical experts have advised us that overreacting is fine if you’re staying at home and wiping everything down and you’re paranoid about every box that’s being delivered to your house. Good. 

Simon Sinek (07:49): 

I think so the problem, I think the other problem is thinking we got this beat and, and because we because we see, you know, remember these things are unpredictable and they’re not, they don’t follow predictable timelines. And so the worst is still to come. And we see that China got hit very hard, reacted very strictly and, and overcame it reasonably quickly. And now you have much smaller countries like Italy and Spain. Remember China has over a billion people, Italy in Spain or, or are tiny and yet their death tolls are higher than China. Now as a percentage of population, this is horrific. And my fear is that if we’re blahzay about it, then bigger nations like the United States are going to suffer horrific casualties because we think that we can beat it or worse that we put economics ahead of human life, which is the same as a company putting profit ahead of people. You know, putting economics ahead of human life is, is the economy will recover. Dead people won’t. 

Adam Jones (09:05): 

Yeah. There’s a lot of businesses right now that are under a lot of financial pressure and we might’ve, maybe the GFC was somewhat analogous to what we’re going through now and maybe we have in, you know, in our lifetime and some business leaders now have seen something slightly seamless and they might or might be something to learn from the past. But if there is anything to learn from, from the past with the business pressures and the, and the, and, and the need to, you know, in the book you’re talking about resources verse will and people are so low on resources right now, what can they learn and how can I act right now to I guess take care of the human impact if they do need to cut resources. 

Simon Sinek (09:50): 

So there’s no question that that’s, I mean, just reality is that there are many businesses that will, that will fail. They will, they will go bankrupt. Mmm. But this is not unprecedented. Let’s, let’s be clear. It might be expedited, it might be sudden, but it’s not unprecedented. The internet put a lot of companies out of business because it was an entirely new way of which we had to live our lives and how businesses function. You know and you can look at any new technology, put old technology out of business. Every video stores don’t exist anymore. They were some of them who are thriving and yet they are all bankrupt because we have streaming. We don’t go to the video store, right? So this is not unprecedented. The ones who will survive are the ones that don’t try and double down on their old business models, but attempt to reinvent their business models. 

Simon Sinek (10:49): 

You know, and we seen this in publishing, we’ve seen this in television. We’ve seen this in, in, in, in music where old fashioned industries in times of change double down on their old business models. Like why is it that Amazon invented itself and the digital reader and not the publishing industry? Why is it that an upstart company called Netflix invented itself and not the movie and television industry? Why is it that a computer company invented iTunes and not the music industry? It’s because they all doubled down on their old business models and the times of extreme change. And so I think now for the companies that have invested in their people for a period of time, the will of those people is high and the will of those people is not survival but reinvention. It’s the companies that have been playing with a finite mindset for too long, that everybody’s in survival mode and doubling down on old business models. 

Simon Sinek (11:37): 

But it’s the companies that have been playing with the finite months mindset, the ones where the people are are scared, but, but, but, but motivated. They’re inspired. They’re, they’re, they’re taking care of each other, that they see this as a crisis of course, but they see this as an opportunity for reinvention. So take a restaurant, for example, I know a fine dining restaurant in New York city. It’s only been open for, for nine months. It’s, it’s, it’s a fantastic, fantastic restaurant. He should go out of business, but he’s not because he’s figured out a way that he can deliver his food to people and keep all his staff right now. He never did deliveries. He’s a fine dining restaurant, fine dining. Restaurants don’t deliver food they do now. Right? And he, instead of laying down and trying to figure out how to get to people to come to the restaurant, which is now illegal, he’s found ways that he can take food to people. And I think there’s an amazing opportunity for for, for companies that’s just a small, silly example, but there’s companies that have amazing opportunities to not look at their, their businesses and say, how can we continue to sell the thing that we’ve got, but rather how can we deliver our message, our cause, advance our our cause in this new world? It’s a different kind of challenge. It’s a different kind of challenge. Hmm. 

Adam Ashton (13:05): 

With all that’s going on, as we’re seeing a lot of companies making a lot of moves, understandably, everyone has to do something. What are some of the things that companies can do in the short term that don’t necessarily impact the, the longterm? So one example, both of us have got someone close to us has been cut by that by 20%, 20% less work, one day a week. Don’t everyone say everyone in the company is 20% less as opposed to getting rid of 20% of the people. What are some of those moves that people can do and what are the longer term impacts when no, I think he through the infinite mindset, what, what impacts did these short term moves have? 

Simon Sinek (13:42): 

Yeah, I mean I really respect that it’s better. We should also for a little that any of us had to suffer a lot and granted it’s impossible to maintain that forever. But if you can hold onto that for as long as possible until we get through this, I think that’s wonderful. And what ends up happening is morale goes up. Well, cause what are the things I’m learning is more than just money, which of course is important for us to survive. But again, we can, we can figure our way through that. Landlords will suffer and not get paid for a while. Like, you know what I mean? Like we’ll get through it, you know but people need their jobs just to, just to do something to get through the day. I found that’s one of the things that people are who are getting laid off. 

Simon Sinek (14:24): 

Yes, they’re con they’re upset about the loss of money. But they’re also upset with the fact that they lost their team and they just lost something to do. And I think we have to remember that there’s more than just money. There’s, there’s, there’s comradery and there’s just using up our time. And I think to involve people, to give our people a challenge, let them work together. That management doesn’t have to come up with all the solutions that we should invite our people to help us out. Not just quote unquote how to make money, but how are we going to reinvent ourselves? What can we do? How can we work together? Who wants to volunteer? And there’s something to be said for that. And that goes for individuals, for freelancers as well. One of the things that I’m seeing that is so amazing is freelancers. 

Simon Sinek (15:09): 

Communities are coming together to figure it out, how they can work together to do something. And you know, if, if we, if we focus only on the, now we’re going to hide under our tables and we’re going to worry, and don’t get me wrong, I have my moments too. Like, I have my, every, every cough sneeze and sore throat that I have, I, I’m taking my temperature and think, this is it. You know but whenever possible, it’s the future that matters. We will get through this. It will end. It cannot last forever. The question is, is how much life will it take before it ends? No. Whether it ends naturally or whether we come up with a vaccine or whether we are con we control it with isolation or whether it kills so many people that goes away. The question is, how do we get through this with as minimal damage to human life as possible, but it will end. Hmm.  

Simon Sinek (16:10): 

You know, my grandmother lived through the blitz and I think stories like hers as we grew up, she would tell us the stories of, you know, she’d go to, and they went to work every day as you’d go to work one morning. And the building that was there the day before wasn’t there. Now, 36,000 people lost their lives in London. 82,000 was seriously injured in 11 weeks of bombing during the blitz. Right. my point is, is they got through it and it wasn’t easy. It was hard, but they worked together and they figured it out and it ended. And the question is, how do we end this with as minimal life and as minimal damage as possible while also recognizing that life will not be the same after this? It will be different. 

Adam Jones (17:00): 

Yeah. It’s so interesting. I feel like in my lifetime, maybe yours as well, Simon, I’m not sure, but I just feel like I haven’t had been lived, lived through a huge world event and in a perverse kind of way, it’s, I don’t mind the idea of being someone who’s actually done that and you know, us generations where millennials we get, we do get attacked sometimes with being a bit self soft might not be the right word, but expecting everything to be handed to us on a platter in that sense. And maybe we will learn some more resilience. I’m not, I’m not sure what it is, but learned something from, from, from adversity. What do you think? 

Simon Sinek (17:43): 

I don’t think it’s, it’s unique to the generation. I think we all got soft, we will start it to believe that, you know, global meltdowns no longer happen and world Wars no longer happen and economies stay good forever. And it just reinforces a finite mindset. And I think you’re right. There’s, you know, in a perverse way there’s a gratitude that every generation is tested and this is our test. You know? And I, I think you’re right. I think this is like, I, like we talked about before, I think this is a huge, a wake up call for the West that we, that this finite mindset is just not, it doesn’t make us stronger, better, Oh, better prepared. And I think for young people but all people, but particularly young people too, you know, that, that there’s more to life than making the most money, becoming a billionaire, finding the best job, being number one, thinking that you have to have the perfect job straight out of school. Otherwise your life is a, is wasted, you know, like [inaudible] this is a journey and this is one of the, one of the events on our journey. And I, and I think it’s a reminder that, that the relationships we build and the, the our ability to serve those, we care about our ability to live a life of with a service, a servant heart a giver’s heart rather than a takers heart. Mmm. It’s just a better way to live. And when we face crisis that we’re surrounded by people who love us. 

Simon Sinek (19:47): 

Yeah. I love it. I’ve got a friend she works at a bank and she’s manages attainment. One of the things she says she struggles with like every, and this is probably all ladies around the world. Look, we’re, we’re all looking for certainty. I’m looking for certainty when the prime minister or president steps on the stage who like, just tell us what to do. Just give me some, give me some certainty. Everyone’s screaming out for it. That I’m a friend who works in the bank of Maddie’s people. She’s like, I know everyone wants that bit. So she’s kind of, she’s funny at Hodson he’s vulnerability, the rot Q or is he’s putting that strong certainty kind of facade on the right way to go? Well if you, if you, if you, if you, if you preach certainty in a time of uncertainty, you’re telling lies. 

Simon Sinek (20:33): 

Yeah. Cause we don’t know. Here’s a fact. We don’t know. We had best guesses. That’s all the medical experts are making best guesses. That’s all based their understanding of other viruses and how things spread and how pandemics work and how the human immune system works and how contagious contagions work. Like they are better qualified to make a best guess than somebody with no qualifications whatsoever. Right? But it’s all the best guests. And I think leaders, there’s a difference between positivity and optimism. Positivity is everything’s fine, everything’s fine, everything’s fine. That’s positivity. Optimism is everything’s going to be fine. 

Adam Ashton (21:17): 

That is a fact. Hmm. Everything’s fine. Not a fact. Kind of. It’s actually misleading 

Simon Sinek (21:25): 

And potentially dangerous, but everything’s going to be fine. Is 100% true and it’s going to hurt for now is true. And what we have to do is figure out ways to work together because we have to get through this together is true. And so what good leadership does is it doesn’t pretend that the tunnel is lit up, but it points squarely to the light at the end of the tunnel, which we know is coming. We just don’t know how far away it is. And we’re going to have to go through the darkness of the tunnel until we get there. And the only thing we can do is keep moving forward. I like that the good leaders have to be optimistic, but positivity is a lie. 

Adam Ashton (22:02): 

Hmm. That’s cool analogy. It’s not that, not just long and saying the tunnels all lit up. It’s just pointing to the lot of the end of the tunnel. I liked that. I liked that a lot. I think one other big lesson out of this is the win. It’s probably a bit, it’s obviously a bit late now, but that we need to be prepared for times like this. There’s going to be something, it might not be it a global virus pandemic, but it could be the GFC. It could be the.com boom and bust. It could be nine 11. There’s going to be something at some point in the next decade, something else is going to happen as well. And I think in that, the good times we need to prepare ourselves for the bad times. So there was a quote from the same till lab a couple of days ago where he said, explain to me why we should spend tax payer money to bail out companies in parentheses airlines who spent the cash buying the own stock instead of having a cross as buffer. So I think it’s the idea that we need to be prepared. You had a good story about victory. Knox had had the, had cash reserves when the, when the times are good though. Saving cause I knew something bad was happening. I think that’s an important lesson for companies and for individuals. 

Simon Sinek (23:03): 

It’s true for individuals as well. You know, we spend all the money we’ve got as opposed to saving money just in case, you know, it’s why we have insurance. We don’t expect our house to burn down. We don’t want a house to burn down, but we have insurance, you know, just in case the house burns down. And in many places it’s the law to have insurance. It makes you wonder, you know, in Australia you have this wonderful provision where it’s the law to vote which I love, but maybe it should be the law to save. Maybe we should be required to put at least X percent of our our paychecks aside for times like this. Because then it reduces the burden on government and each later on. And by the way, I think that goes for companies as well. And one of the problems with so many of these industries is they’re considered an essential industries and they’re too big to fail. 

Simon Sinek (23:53): 

This is what we saw in 2008. There were companies that were too big to fail. We couldn’t let them fail, even though they deserved it. They deserved to fail because they built bad companies ill prepared. You know, and you’re absolutely right. Airlines are, are not the only one. There are other companies too that stock buybacks are not necessarily a bad thing. The problem is they overdo it. They over-index and do it too much in the name of self self profit. And they leave their companies unbelievably vulnerable to stuff like this. What, where’s the company that stand up and says, we’ve got a $2 billion reserve. We can weather this for about a year. We’re good. 

Simon Sinek (24:38): 

You know, and that’s because we know why. Because they succumb to the pressure from shareholders and say, how can you keep $2 billion in Missouri? That’s our money. Well, look at the stock market. All of those same people who put the same pressure and all of these companies, they’ve, they’ve lost 30% of their wealth because they, because, because of a, this nonsense, because of the nonsense of before excessive pressure they put on companies to think short term, guess who’s paying the price? Shareholders. The irony is thick. But I, I fear that we won’t learn our lesson. We in the West are, we have short memories. You know, I lived in New York city during September 11th, and I’ll tell you that city, it was unbelievable. After September 11th, there was no crime and crime disappeared. And, and everybody was nice to each other. This is a city with 8 million people. 

Simon Sinek (25:32): 

It was like utopia. People were concerned about each other and cooperative and well that went away. You know. So I, you know, this is where good leadership comes in. We need good leadership in politics. We need good leadership in our businesses. We need good leadership in our communities. We need good leadership in our families. We need good leadership in our churches. We need good leadership everywhere. And right now we have a crisis of leadership in the world. We have very little good leaders in the world. Very few good leaders in the world, people who preach a vision, who offer as a just cause and prepare for all eventualities. And we’re inspired to do so. But unfortunately we keep placing leaders in positions of power who, who encourage us to, to, to, to think short term. And I, and I, I do believe, you know, I have a, I have an optimistic view of this. 

Simon Sinek (26:29): 

I really hope a lot of people, especially your generation, are profoundly moved by this experience. Remember, our grandparents were really frugal. That’s not because there’s anything wrong with them. It’s because they lived the depression in the war. And so it affected their worldview for the rest of their lives. So for a young generation, especially gen Z that’s coming of age in this, in this crisis, it’s absolutely going to affect them for the rest of their lives. And I hope for the better. I hope your generation comes through with, with, as better planners, better savers and more concerned about a genuine human interaction and deep, meaningful relationships. And I hope we never have to go through something like this again, but if we do, we’ll be prepared. 

Simon Sinek (27:17): 

Absolutely. I love it. It’s a, it’s still quite early days. But do you have any, I mean, have you seen any signs of leadership you like, well that’s great. And, or the flip side of that, is there any leadership that you are saying that that is, is, isn’t perhaps going to give us the best outcomes? Well, I, I’m okay. You know, I, I’m in California and I’m proud of the fact that governor Newsome was ahead of the curve. You know, California went into lockdown over a week ago where other places are just doing it today or haven’t done it yet. And so in a, in a nation that’s behind the curve, I’m, I’m in a state where we’re ahead of the curve and as long as people follow the rules, it, it’ll have a positive effect. I saw some comments by governor Cuomo from New York yesterday or two days ago and he was so honest and yet still had a tone of optimism and, and said that New York has, is, is hitting is hit hard, not because anything’s bad about New York, it’s because of population density. 

Simon Sinek (28:32): 

And because this is so much international travel that it happened there first, you know, it was her and, and he’s saying, take lessons from New York, things we’ve done right and things we’ve done wrong. You know. Mmm. He was thinking about the benefits that new York’s could offer everybody else because we could see what happens. So I’ve been pretty inspired by, by those two governors. Mainly because I spend a lot of time in New York and California and so I’ve, I’ve been paying attention to their words. Yeah. I was wondering if there’s anyone you want to call out for bad, but we’ll we’ll let you off the hook on that one. One thing I was thinking too many others, how that any, any leader that, any leader that, that thought that if they stuck their head in the sand, it would go away. 

Simon Sinek (29:36): 

Which unfortunately, whoever anybody’s thinking of in their mind, it’s not that it’s just that person. I got a list. Yeah, for sure. I think this coronavirus is like a, it’s like a finite game within the infinite game of allies. And then our species that we, there’s a bit of fun. Again, we want to win. Obviously we want to beat it, but then the other is no finite game. This is a moment in the journey. I lock it. There’s no such thing as, as beating as beating viruses will overcome the challenge of this one. Fantastic, but it’s not going to go away. That doesn’t mean the elimination of all viruses. The next one could be Ebola. If you stay at home now, yeah, you’re fine. You know, like I’m at home, I’m touching my face like my house is clean, but, and even if we, if somebody gets it though, the death rates are higher than the normal flu, most people will be okay. Now imagine to do Ebola where like most people die. Like, like there’s no winning. This is just, this is just a bump in the journey. That’s what we have to get over. We have to get over this idea of thinking in terms of winning and losing. It’s like you go to school, you have good grades and bad grades. They’re just, they’re just blips on the journey of school. 

Speaker 4 (31:04): 

[Inaudible] 

Simon Sinek (31:04): 

You haven’t won school cause you got an a and you didn’t lose school cause you got a D. 

Simon Sinek (31:11): 

That’s great. We want to get ahead without a doubt. We want to be ahead but we don’t win this. We get through it. There’s a difference. I like it. Well my question was was going to be, how do we snap out of that? Find out. Oh you’re okay. My question was going to be how do you snap out of that fun mindset and back to the infinite mindset, which I think you did a pretty good job there of, cause I think a lot of people that it’s easy. This, this seems like forcing us back to finite, but it’s vital that we snap back to the infinite thinking. Yeah. Again, think of, think of days as ahead and behind rather than winning and losing. Think of these things as, as moments on the journey struggles along the journey, but there’s no winning and losing. There is no winning and losing enough in an infinite game and the game of life as an infinite game, we don’t get through this. And when the game of life, we try to mitigate the damage. That’s what we’re trying to do. Not win, just mitigate the damage. It will end. The question is how much damage will it do before it ends? 

Simon Sinek (32:13): 

And if we do nothing, if we make no reaction, it’ll do a huge amount of damage. If we do something, it’ll do less damage. There’s no getting away from the damage. The question is how much damage that’s within our control. Love it. Being a being a podcast. It talks about books on and we go through the best pits of the best books each week. What’s some of your favorite books you’ve read and 

Adam Jones (32:40): 

Things you can recommend for our listeners? And obviously would you, that was a pretty approp jump away from the previous discussion we’ve had. 

Simon Sinek (32:50): 

I think essential reading for every human being on the planet is man’s search for meaning by Viktor Frankl. I think if you’re in business, you have to read it. I think if you are an entrepreneur, you have to read it. I think if you’re a human being, you have to read it. Mmm. I think that’s, that’s an, that’s an essential book. 

Adam Jones (33:12): 

Thank you so much. I mean if we just compare ourselves wherever we are or whatever we’re going through now or whatever you go through in life and you just, as soon as you compare it to what Victor Frankl did and how he handled it and then, I mean, there’s nothing that really compares and it just kind of snaps you back into reality and probably excited gratitude. So, 

Simon Sinek (33:33): 

Well, one of his lessons was we cannot control the circumstances around us. All we can control is our adverts. I think that’s vital for right now with the, the, the Tom are, and now obviously the thinking of [inaudible] the infinite game versus a finite game is, is vitally important. The thinking of that, what can you control? Well, you can control your own attitude and you are not, they’re two vital things. Is there any other things that could be a book? It could be something else. Any ways of thinking any other ways that you filter all this information through? What, what other small sample ideas do you think it’s absolutely vital for people to be approaching this time with? You know, try, try and call, call, call people. If you’re feeling lonely, call someone and say, I’m feeling lonely. If somebody is living alone and you’re worried about them, then pick up the phone and call them and say, hi, how are you doing? 

Simon Sinek (34:28): 

I was thinking about you. It’s an amazingly powerful thing when somebody says, I’m thinking about you. You know, yes, we’re texting plenty and texting is fine, but you know, pick up the phone, get on a zoom call or a WhatsApp video or something at lunch, have coffee, have dinner with each other. You know, Lee, I, you know, I did this last night. I laid out my dinner and my friend laid out her dinner and we had dinner together. You know in person is obviously better, but, and looking somebody in the eye physically is better than on a screen. But, but just to hear a human voice, it’s, it’s way more powerful than people, than people realize. So, you know, to be a leader right now means to have empathy and think of others as human beings. And when possible, just give him a call. You know, we, we live in a, in a world where phone calls are basically free. You know, I remember growing up, we used to call my grandparents in the U K and it would be like, you know, 25 cents a minute or more, know 50 cents a minute. We’d like time it, we’d had timers, how long we could be on the phone cause it got so expensive you can call anywhere in the world for free. So do that. 

Simon Sinek (35:44): 

Love it. So wrapping it up now are coming toward the end now. Where can people find you and learn more about your books and your upcoming other upcoming projects? Simon, you know, all the usual places. Google, Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter, all the, all the, all the usual stuff. Probably. I probably should, I’ve probably should realize it’s not you know, some, some people it’s worth asking the question, then I’ll forget. I didn’t mean to be flip about it, but I think, you know, yeah, I think everyone is on Instagram. That’s Facebook, Twitter, like it’s not unique to me, you know? Yeah. I don’t think it’s any indication of where somebody is in their life or their career cause you know, it’s like, yeah, you know, what’s your what’s your next project? What do you, what are you working on now that this is all common? 

Simon Sinek (36:48): 

Obviously you went to come to Australia, obviously that’s not happening in anything else that’s happening around around the world. I’m sure a few things that you had in the pipeline for 20 20th now on the back burner. Yeah. Well, I mean, I am coming to Australia. The question is just, just not now. Yeah, I mean I had my mindset tour that was going and we planned on expanding it. It was just a, an a test to see if it worked. And it’s been great. So once we’re back to normal, I’ll boost that up again. And we’re looking for ways, you know, in the spirit of reinvention, we’re looking for ways that we can do something similar in an online forum. You know, many of the plans that we were developing, we are continuing to develop. 

Simon Sinek (37:32): 

We want to do more wide discoveries for people. Especially now. I think people want to know their purpose and have the time to figure it out. So we’re, we’re in the next month or two, you know, we, we’ve, we’ve accelerated all of our plans for how we can bring this to life given all the circumstances. Fantastic. Simon, thank you so much for your time this morning. We appreciate it. We hope to see you when you’re, when you’re in Australia, whenever that may be. I look forward, I look forward to it. It’ll, it’ll be next year. I’ll be there next year. And and I look forward to meeting you in person. Thanks so much for getting up early and taking the time. I really appreciate. No, thank you so much so and so it’s been an honor to get to chat to, yeah, really appreciate it. Thanks Adam. Thanks so much. Yeah, you’re welcome. Send me that recording. Okay. Absolutely. Because I think there was a lot of good stuff in there that will benefit a lot of people who are going through stuff in these times, and I want to share it, so make sure we get a copy of it sooner rather than later. Absolutely. Thank you so much. I thanks for getting up early. Go get some sleep. 

Simon Sinek (38:39): 

Bye.